the deadly viper assasination squad ([info]somuchbraver) wrote,
@ 2007-06-01 04:02:00
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I don't get it guys. What's the big deal here? My understanding of the situation was that LJ was finally carrying through with stuff in the TOS and while doing that, went a little too general and accidentally suspended a bunch of fandom related and survivor journals. When I checked out the list I saw a bunch of communities that really should have been private to the members (age play? People under 18 don't need to stumble on that and hell, neither do I) and fandom communities with deviant sexual subjects (A lot of Harry Potter, which I can't blame LJ for finding questionable, I've got nothing against twincest, It's just not my thing).

But all this drama about freedom of speech that this stirred up is incredible if you ask me. I mean, maybe I don't have all the facts because I came late to the party and I was never effected by the mistake, but the fact remains...it was a mistake. I don't think Livejournal really grasps just how many of their subscribers are fandom people, or at least they didn't until this, and fanfiction is a fuzzy moral line, that's what disclaimers are for, right? I personally think impressionable young Harry Potter fans should be somewhat protected from Snarry fiction and Weasley incest. And there are plenty of communities out there that take respectable steps to keep their content from impressionable eyes and out of trouble with the TOS. Do I have an example? Yes I do, take a walk on over to [info]darker_spike sometime and see how they run their operation. They have found a way to enjoy their explicit fanfic, slash pictures, and underage sex without incurring LJ's wrath or putting 13 year old Spike fans at risk.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but 'cmon guys, Livejournal has got to protect their asses too. They're the ones responsible for what goes on here, we're just anonymous contributors. I think they have a responsibility to uphold whatever moral values they see fit.

I think if you want to talk about freedom of speech, there are much better soapboxes out there.

edit

http://news.livejournal.com/99650.html?thread=50503490#t50503490

^This comment thread provides a very level headed counterpoint to the insanity.

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[info]stellar_dust
2007-06-01 12:40 pm UTC (link)
It's not so much the deletions that's the problem as the absolutely terrible way the entire thing was handled by the LJ/SA leadership, and the other aspects of the whole questionable-journal issue that are only now becoming widely known.

I'm having trouble finding links, and I need to go to work, but here's a quick rundown:

- the deletion was prompted by a group, Warriors for Innocence, that appears to be a far-far-right-wing, militaristic, Christian vigilante hate group, with *no* legitimate standing or ties to law enforcement. Though many, many legitimate groups and users had reported questionable use in the past, LJ had always responded "we can't do anything because talking about illegal acts does not equal performing illegal acts." The difference appears to be that WFI threatened LJ's advertising sponsors. This is very troubling to a lot of people.

- It wasn't only actual pedophiles and fandom journals with questionable content that went - also several journals belonging to abuse survivors were included in the deletions, as well as a discussion group for the book Lolita, and communities devoted to Japanese fashion (lolita is apparently a Japanese fashion term).

- There was no response whatsoever from LJ/SA for nearly two days, and when it finally came, the CEO talked to the media before he talked to us.

- LJ has interpreted "interest" in a much, much stricter way than many of LJ's users, or the way LJ itself appears to have interpreted it in the past. The TOS also appear to have changed, with not only no warning, but still as of this moment no official clarification as to what exactly the rules and procedures now are.

- Not only do the journal deletions seem to have been a very poorly planned, not thought through, knee-jerk reaction, the LJ leadership, even the best guys in the LJ leadership, have been revealed to regularly screen and delete comments to news posts with no explanation or warning.

- ALL responses by LJ and SA thus far, even the apologetic ones and the ones offering to reinstate journals, have completely failed to address any of these issues.

It's not so much a freedom of speech issue, no, because LJ's not affiliated with the government and isn't bound by the bill of rights. Fandom has glommed on freedom of speech as a catchphrase, though, as fandom will do. d-:

Anyway, I might have missed something in my haste, but that's basically what has people seriously pissed at LJ and its practices. I hope this helps you understand! If you want supporting links, I'll try to find them for you later today.

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[info]somuchbraver
2007-06-01 10:30 pm UTC (link)
Wow, thank you!

What's making everyone think Livejournal was pressured by Warriors for Innocence? I haven't seen anything substantial to connect them to this and it seems like everyone expanding a rumor or maybe WFI swooping in and taking credit for the whole thing to make matters worse. When I heard about it I figured it was triggered by MySpace's whole pedophile search.

All this stuff makes me feel like the users are trying to hang LJ for doing something rash and stupid that they ended up apologizing for anyway. I realize it was handled badly, but I just think sometimes people do stupid things and since LJ has never actually done anything to me before, I'm inclined to be like, "oops guys! forgiven!"

And in the TOS it does state that LJ reserves the right to alter the contract without informing us at any time, and I believe back when I joined and actually read the TOS, they had a little statement about their right to delete or suspend any public content that put minors at risk.

I don't know, I think I just see it as Livejournal provides us with this nifty service, so they have a right to provide it to us on their own terms (and I realize a lot of people are waiting to hear what exactly those terms are) and as consumers, if we don't like it, we're free to move to a competitor.

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[info]stellar_dust
2007-06-02 01:01 am UTC (link)
They seem to be going to great lengths to neither confirm nor deny WFI's involvement (this (in the ETA) seems rather closer to a confirmation than a denial, though). They've been directly asked so many different times from email to AIM to phone calls to comments, and no one's giving a straight answer, so I think the fear and outrage on that count is justified. Who will LJ cave to next? No one has really speculated that it was directly triggered by the MySpace thing. This post has some explanation of how it may have started with WFI (and ALL of [info]liz_marcs' recent posts are relevant, with lots and lots of good links).

LJ *has* screwed up before - actually, not so much LJ, as Six Apart. Ever since LJ was sold to SA, things have been getting worse .. it started with the "No ads!" -> "Okay, ads, but only text ads!" -> "Okay, banner ads, but no punching monkeys!" And this deletion debacle appears to have occurred entirely on SA's watch.

Although they *are* responding better than most companies would - hell, better than the Bush administration has responded - at least Barak admits he made a mistake! d: And to a degree, it's admirable, although the level of obfuscation going on is still quite troubling. It's going to take a long time for many LJ users (including me) to forgive them, though .. and if they screw up again, even longer.

The problem with "if we don't like it, just move" is that fandom has been hard at work setting up an incredibly complex infrastructure on LJ for years and years. The community is older than SA's involvement and it's entrenched, and people would rather fight for it than move. One comment I saw likened it to threats of moving to Canada after the 2004 election - people mostly didn't go, because it's easier to work to make your home a better and safer place than to move yourself, friends, family, history, all your stuff, and fic to another country.

Although I do think it is a good idea for those of us on LJ to spread around a little, get some of our eggs out of this basket, and make it a practice to have multiple backups all over the internets. LJ has been such an *easy* place for fandom, and we've gotten complacent. But now that we've shown how loud we roar, I *hope* we can spread out, without losing the amazing sense of community that LJ has fostered.

I haven't read all of these by *any* means, but [info]fandom_lawyers has a post indexing all the discussions about TOS, contracts, censorship, possible legal responses, etc that you might be interested in looking at.

(And hey, real-time! this news post just went up, and I haven't thought to hard about it yet, but it gives me some degree of hope -- though I'll be very eager to see the results of all this analysis.

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[info]somuchbraver
2007-06-02 06:10 am UTC (link)
I think even if the actions were prompted by a comment or letter from WFI, even a broken clock is right 730 times a year, and maybe LJ wasn't so much pressured by this loony organization, but reminded of their responsibility from the original TOS. I can't see a good reason to blame WFI for the possibility of a suggestion or pressure being taken too far. Maybe I'm too trusting of the whole bunch of them, but I still have the option to not see ads on my free journal, so I don't feel the least bit betrayed.

It is unfair to judge a community on it's user interests, it's a really stupid idea also, but in addition to that, I don't see anything wrong with the idea of fic writers who feel threatened by the TOS making their journals FO anyway. No one's saying they can't write, I think it wouldn't be unfair if LJ did ask communities with that content to take special measures like locking entries. I don't think that's a bad idea at all, I've been a member of several communities that were private to members only and felt more free because of it.

I don't know, personally for me if Livejournal takes the opportunity in the next week or so to lay down some clear rules and regulations on the issue I will consider the matter resolved.

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[info]stellar_dust
2007-06-02 02:02 pm UTC (link)
Why could they not have been reminded of that responsibility by the legitimate organizations that contacted them much earlier, such as Perverted Justice, who might have worked with them to handle things more delicately, though? Sigh.

I don't see ads on my paid journal, but the use of ads still concerns me as a reflection on the way LJ/SA plans to do business.

FO is certainly a good idea, but as actual journal content wasn't even glanced over (just interests), I'm not sure it's particularly relevant here.

If they lay down clear regulations, and set up a good infrastructure to deal with this, and (one of the best ideas I've heard) institute transparency in the abuse team, and make sure they have an experienced internet lawyer on staff ... I'll consider it resolved, but I still won't be getting a permanent account. And either way I'll try to personally make an effort not to be so reliant on LJ as an archive.

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